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Author Topic: Alternative Medicine  (Read 1265 times)

  • Offline Dave

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Alternative Medicine
on: November 26, 2007, 21:00:58 PM
Id often laughed when I heard about people who were into things like healing crystals, psychic surgery, acupuncture and homeopathy.

Fair enough, for minor problems it isnt likely to do any harm (well except chiropractors perhaps). But on the whole, as long as it isnt for anything major, going to these quacks is not going to damage anyone and the placebo effect will probably do them some good too.

I hadnt realized, however, that some of this rubbish is available on the NHS.

Now if some hippie wants to go and see an African witch doctor, tarot card reader or some crazy chink who wants to stick pins in him then he can crack on and pay for it.

It is also worrying that being funded by an NHS trust almost legitimizes some of these quacks, anyone with a GCSE in chemistry knows that a homeopath is either a complete idiot or a massive fraudster yet weve got a homeopathic hospital in London that NHS patients can be referred to!!!!

It is crazy; crazier still is the fact that some "universities" (well they call themselves that but theyre actually just polys) are offering courses in this stuff.

I mean what do they expect to teach the students; Im guessing they must have lectures in how to disregard evidence, not look at the results of proper clinical trials/randomized blind tests and completely ignore fairly basic Biology, Physics and Chemistry.

I thought media studies was taking the piss!
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  • Offline Sam

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Alternative Medicine
Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 21:26:12 PM
Suppose you could argue if a porportion of tax payers want to see one, then they are paying for it.
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  • Offline Dave

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Re:Alternative Medicine
Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 21:36:16 PM
not really, Im sure some tax payers would like a cleaner or a personal trainer to pop round once a week - just because they pay tax doesnt mean these sorts of things should be provided by the state. neither should the NHS waste money on treatments that are only really placebos.
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  • Offline Quixoticish

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Re:Alternative Medicine
Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 22:15:02 PM
Lumping everything in that is labelled as "alternative medicine" and calling it crap is something of a generalisation, many of them have genuine medical uses and are scientifically proven to work, whereas others such as the crystal healing and psychic surgery are a load of old cobblers with no basis in neither science nor common sense.
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  • Offline Sam

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Re:Alternative Medicine
Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 22:17:20 PM
Quote from: Dave
not really, Im sure some tax payers would like a cleaner or a personal trainer to pop round once a week - just because they pay tax doesnt mean these sorts of things should be provided by the state. neither should the NHS waste money on treatments that are only really placebos.


But if 10% of taxpayers want it then 10% of taxpayers NHS budget should be spent on it. Generally speaking no ?
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  • Offline Serious

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Re:Alternative Medicine
Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 22:24:59 PM
Quote from: Dave
not really, Im sure some tax payers would like a cleaner or a personal trainer to pop round once a week - just because they pay tax doesnt mean these sorts of things should be provided by the state. neither should the NHS waste money on treatments that are only really placebos.


Except you are just making an assumption that this stuff doesnt work and tarring the whole lot with it.

I would be first to join you in saying that aroma therapy, healing crystals and a whole load of other therapies are no more than shamanistic junk leftovers. But acupuncture actually seems to work and farmers spend millions of their own dosh treating animals with homoeopathy every year.

Psychic surgeons can be fakes (about 99%) or they can be real. I have seen a couple doing investigative work rather than actual surgery and they can diagnose problems that have foxed doctors and surgeons with all their equipment. Ideal book if you want something to read on this is Arigo: surgeon of the rusty knife.

Otherwise its worth testing something out, even if it turns out to be any better than snake oil. Then ditching those that dont work.

OTOH you also have to remember that a load of medicines that were being handed out by the NHS by the million have turned out to be no more effective than placebos. A number of operations have proved to cause more problems than they cure and some have been banned after finding out they did no good whatsoever or were far too dangerous for the benefits. Quite a number of people have left hospital worse off after treatment.

Then there is the drugs, one of the leading causes of death in the world is unwanted side effects.

We dont know how many more of these crack pot items are out there still being handed out by doctors.
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  • Offline Dave

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Re:Alternative Medicine
Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 22:25:23 PM
Quote from: Sam
Quote from: Dave
not really, Im sure some tax payers would like a cleaner or a personal trainer to pop round once a week - just because they pay tax doesnt mean these sorts of things should be provided by the state. neither should the NHS waste money on treatments that are only really placebos.


But if 10% of taxpayers want it then 10% of taxpayers NHS budget should be spent on it. Generally speaking no ?


If 10% of tax payers believed that eating Big Macs could cure obesity should the NHS pay for it?
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  • Offline Sam

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Re:Alternative Medicine
Reply #7 on: November 26, 2007, 22:26:51 PM
Quote from: Dave
Quote from: Sam
Quote from: Dave
not really, Im sure some tax payers would like a cleaner or a personal trainer to pop round once a week - just because they pay tax doesnt mean these sorts of things should be provided by the state. neither should the NHS waste money on treatments that are only really placebos.


But if 10% of taxpayers want it then 10% of taxpayers NHS budget should be spent on it. Generally speaking no ?


If 10% of tax payers believed that eating Big Macs could cure obesity should the NHS pay for it?


Yes. Isnt that what democracy is ?
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  • Offline Dave

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Re:Alternative Medicine
Reply #8 on: November 26, 2007, 22:29:58 PM
Quote from: Chris H
Lumping everything in that is labelled as "alternative medicine" and calling it crap is something of a generalisation, many of them have genuine medical uses and are scientifically proven to work, whereas others such as the crystal healing and psychic surgery are a load of old cobblers with no basis in neither science nor common sense.


Most of it doesnt work though - if it did work it wouldnt be alternative medicine

If it worked it would be able to pass blind randomized clinical trials and the results could be recreated and subject to peer review

if a method worked it wouldnt be alternative it would simply become a part of standard everyday evidence based medicine.
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  • Offline Dave

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Re:Alternative Medicine
Reply #9 on: November 26, 2007, 22:31:32 PM
Quote from: Sam
Quote from: Dave
Quote from: Sam
Quote from: Dave
not really, Im sure some tax payers would like a cleaner or a personal trainer to pop round once a week - just because they pay tax doesnt mean these sorts of things should be provided by the state. neither should the NHS waste money on treatments that are only really placebos.


But if 10% of taxpayers want it then 10% of taxpayers NHS budget should be spent on it. Generally speaking no ?


If 10% of tax payers believed that eating Big Macs could cure obesity should the NHS pay for it?


Yes. Isnt that what democracy is ?


nope because the 90% majority who dont, in that hypothetical example, believe eating big macs will help you lose weight would probably also expect the NHS to act sensibly and not cave in to a minority of people with delusions
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  • Offline Sam

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Re:Alternative Medicine
Reply #10 on: November 26, 2007, 22:34:42 PM
Quote from: Dave
Quote from: Sam
Quote from: Dave
Quote from: Sam
Quote from: Dave
not really, Im sure some tax payers would like a cleaner or a personal trainer to pop round once a week - just because they pay tax doesnt mean these sorts of things should be provided by the state. neither should the NHS waste money on treatments that are only really placebos.


But if 10% of taxpayers want it then 10% of taxpayers NHS budget should be spent on it. Generally speaking no ?


If 10% of tax payers believed that eating Big Macs could cure obesity should the NHS pay for it?


Yes. Isnt that what democracy is ?


nope because the 90% majority who dont, in that hypothetical example, believe eating big macs will help you lose weight would probably also expect the NHS to act sensibly and not cave in to a minority of people with delusions


All Im tryng to say is that if a big enough proportion of people want something, then their contribution can be spent on that.

If you want to argue absolute majorities rather than relative, then every single penny paid by northern english would be spent in London, since the the majority of the country resides down south.
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  • Offline Serious

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Re:Alternative Medicine
Reply #11 on: November 26, 2007, 22:38:30 PM
Quote from: Dave
Quote from: Chris H
Lumping everything in that is labelled as "alternative medicine" and calling it crap is something of a generalisation, many of them have genuine medical uses and are scientifically proven to work, whereas others such as the crystal healing and psychic surgery are a load of old cobblers with no basis in neither science nor common sense.


Most of it doesnt work though - if it did work it wouldnt be alternative medicine

If it worked it would be able to pass blind randomized clinical trials and the results could be recreated and subject to peer review

if a method worked it wouldnt be alternative it would simply become a part of standard everyday evidence based medicine.


A lot of them work through psychology rather than the physical treatment. If a person thinks they are getting better then their chances to do so are likely to be improved.

If you dont think this works, it does, in double blind trials too, using rats.
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  • Offline Dave

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Re:Alternative Medicine
Reply #12 on: November 26, 2007, 22:39:44 PM
Quote from: Serious

Except you are just making an assumption that this stuff doesnt work and tarring the whole lot with it.


yep - if it did work then it could be proved to work and would cease to be an alternative

Quote

I would be first to join you in saying that aroma therapy, healing crystals and a whole load of other therapies are no more than shamanistic junk leftovers. But acupuncture actually seems to work and farmers spend millions of their own dosh treating animals with homoeopathy every year.


if you believe that homeopathy works beyond a placebo effect then you are far too stupid to even understand GCSE level chemistry

Quote

Then there is the drugs, one of the leading causes of death in the world is unwanted side effects.


well that is why these crackpot things catch on - drugs have side effects because they have actual effects in the first place

homeopathy doesnt have side effects because, well there is no effect in the first place save for a placebo - the only way it would have side effects is if someone invented a side effect may cause headaches and wrote it on the side of the bottle - then it would be interesting to see if some patients not only cured their fever etc.. and also developed a headache

the whole reason this type of medicine became popular is because it got introduced during the cholera epidemic where conventional medicine did more harm than good - survival rates at homeopathic hospitals were higher because doing, in real terms, nothing was better than harmful techniques such as blood letting
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  • Offline Sam

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Alternative Medicine
Reply #13 on: November 26, 2007, 22:43:26 PM
I agree with you Dave. That homeopathy is a load of bollocks. But if people wanna believe thats their right and a proportion of their tax revenue should be allocated.
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  • Offline Dave

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Re:Alternative Medicine
Reply #14 on: November 26, 2007, 22:50:13 PM
Quote from: Sam
All Im tryng to say is that if a big enough proportion of people want something, then their contribution can be spent on that.


it would be like if 10% of drivers decided that there should be no speed limits and the Govt responds by allowing 10% of motorways to have no speed limits

no doubt at least 50% of students probably want certain drugs to be legal - doesnt mean the Govt should just give in

the NHS has limited resources, OK alternative therapys might not be a huge drain but it is still a drain and money could be better spent elsewhere on something that will actually do some good.


the idea that some snakeoil salesmen could be seen as legit is worrying where serious illness is concerned - someone could go undiagnosed for a heart condition or cancer etc.. and carry on regardless with their bottle of magic water until they pop their clogs 20 years too early

the health service has a duty of care over people, just because some people are deluded into believing in certain things doesnt mean the NHS should cave into their demands - especially when the repercussions could be dangerous.

the opposition to childhood vaccinations by homeopaths for example is a very serious concern if it were to become popular.
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